Thursday, September 6, 2018

Daemons Discuss - Podcast: Take 43! | Chapter Discussion about the All Souls Trilogy; Chapter 19 of Shadow of Night

All that children need is love, a grown-up to take responsibility for them, and a soft place to land. The same was true for chicks.

Take 43 - The One With The Chicken and the Egg

Description: A visit with Mary Sidney, the Hilliard miniatures, and a teen witch! So much to unpack in this chapter! We come to it with new eyes because we find surprising parallels, unexpected character traits, and a key phrase we've never noticed before. This is the chapter where Diana Bishop faces the fact that she knows nothing about being a witch. Seems neither did we! Stay tuned for our last thoughts; you are invited to our red carpet party -- Daemon style!

SPOILER ALERT! We (The Daemons) approach this podcast with an assumption that the listener has read The All Souls Trilogy, including A Discovery of Witches, Shadow of Night, The Book of Life, and snippits from The World of All Souls. If you haven't, and you don't mind, we certainly don't mind!  😊  Let's do this. *Note - this podcast is labeled 'explicit'

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1. Show notes:

For newcomers to the series:- We'll start with the basics: The books in discussion are A Discovery of Witches, Shadow of Night and The Book of Life.  Together they make The All Souls Trilogy by Deborah Harkness.
- Our Daemon Guides to the All Souls Trilogy are available for download: ADOW, SON, TBOL

Deb's newsletter - The Blast; subscribe on her website
- If you'd like a ready-reference from the author herself, be sure to download the All Souls Real-Time Reading companion (free e-book at online booksellers via Penguin and Headline books).
- Deborah Harkness usually conducts a real-time reading on her Facebook Page (starting in September), and shares her posts across social media. Check out her website for all of her social media links, and of course all that she has to offer her readers! Be sure to sign up for her newsletter while you are there!
- To see what's available on the web as far as the All Souls universe fandom, check our links page.

In this episode:
* (01:27) – This podcast is brought to you by our Patrons! To become a patron all you need to do is visit us at and become a member. See what level tier you'd like to join us! All tier levels will receive access to our exclusive Daemons Discuss! The Aftershow podcast.

* (02:33) – Thank you Dora, and Lauren for your SpeakPipe messages!

* (06:45) – Thank you Angela, and Stephen for your emails. The word/place that Val has pronunciation problems with (from Stephen’s email -- you did it again, Stephen) is: Nîmes. Write in, or call. Help a Daemon out!

* (10:23) -- This chapter discussion is bought to you by Angela Page - thank you, Angela!

Ok, maybe not this teen witch! We're are actually talking about Annie -- picture is from the 1989 movie, Teen Witch
a. Chapter 19 
(10:48) – Fire and brimstone? Not so much.
  • Annie! We discuss Hubbard’s selection of Annie to help Diana.
  • We see Diana immediately stand up for Annie because she doesn’t think Hubbard does, and Matthew won't even be courteous to the young girl. “No, that wasn’t our agreement,” Matthew said impatiently, his booted feet landing heavily on the wooden floor. Annie flinched. “Do you have any power or knowledge to speak of, or is Hubbard playing some joke?” 
  • The naming of Hubbard’s family members - it seems many of them have names according to where they were found (Undercroft, Blackfriars, Amen Corner).
  • Matthew’s being rather rude to Annie. Is it because he’s sexist, or just suspicious of Hubbard?
  • Angela points out that Annie was a witch of little skill, just like Diana was at her age.
  • Annie’s aunt is a 'fine midwife, and a powerful witch' - Val is baffled by Annie’s boasting (considering this woman didn't take her in). Also, was that fact that Annie's aunt was a midwife a factor in Hubbard's choice, or happenstance?
  • Lauren pointed out some parallels between Sarah and Susanna, and we found more! The fact that they both have dead sisters who have young witches left behind to care for . . .
  • Françoise and Diana make sure Annie is taken care of and doesn’t want for anything. “Never mind. She’ll have belongings soon enough.” I smiled at Annie, who looked uncertain. Françoise and I spent the weekend making sure that Annie was clean as a whistle, clothed and shod properly, and that she knew enough basic math to make small purchases for me. 
  • Another parallel! Christian Grey and Annie! Fifty Shades Freed tells Christian’s story . . . thanks, Jean!
  • Mr. Norman (according to Jean) sounds like Homer Simpson! BTW, no actual word on "Mr. Norman's" existence. We looked it up, and it appears, thankfully, he's a figment of a talented author's imagination.
  • Did Diana want for anything growing up? Ultimately we figured she wanted for connection.
  • Annie is granted power by Diana by teaching her basic math and sending her out on errands. To test her, I sent her to the nearby apothecary for a penny’s worth of quill pens and half a pound of sealing wax (Philippe was right: Matthew went through office supplies at an alarming pace), and she came back promptly with change to spare. “He wanted a shilling!” Annie complained. “That wax isn’t even good for candles, is it?” 
  • Angela’s Pierre took a shine to Annie! He teaches her cat’s cradle
  • We wonder what Pierre's type actually is? Angela and Valerie speculate that he was into boys (of consenting age -- c'mon, people!)
  • Married D time! Matthew’s impatience in the bedroom. “You’re very impatient in the bedroom,” I observed, sliding my hands into the neck of his shirt. “Really?” Matthew arched his aristocratic brows in mock disbelief. “And here I thought the problem was my admirable restraint. 
  • The Ditch. Yeah, you knew it was gonna happen here. He spent the next few hours showing me just how limitless his patience could be in an empty house on a Sunday. By the time everybody returned, we were both pleasantly exhausted and in a considerably better frame of mind
Matthew and Diana as depicted by Hilliard (and his apprentice Isaac)
* (26:06) – Back to business! It's time for a lunch date with Mary!
  • We discuss conversational phrases used in the Elizabethan era . . . “And how is your husband, Diana?” the countess asked, rolling up her sleeves, her eyes fixed on the book before her. “In good health,” I said. This, I had learned, was the Elizabethan equivalent of “Fine.” “That is welcome news.” 
  • Husband venting! “I wish his good humor was more reliable. Matthew is mercurial these days. He’s possessive one moment and ignores me as if I were a piece of furniture the next.” 
  • Do men do still their wives as property? Angela and Valerie think so -- little bit . . . “Men treat their property that way.” She picked up a jug of water. “I am not his property,” I said flatly. “What you and I know, what the law says, and how Matthew himself feels are three entirely separate issues.” 
  • Books and leisure to indulge our passions! Just like the Daemons! File that under "Stuff we have in common with Mary Sidney!" “You and I have an easier time with our husbands than other women do, Diana. We have our books and the leisure to indulge our passions, thank God. Most do not.” Mary gave everything in her beaker a final stir and decanted the contents into another glass vessel. 
  • Mary is very practical! And caring! She teaches her servants how to read. “Do you teach your female servants how to read?” “Certainly,” Mary responded promptly. “They learn to write and reckon, too. Such skills will make them more valuable to a good husband—one who likes to earn money as well as spend it.” 
  • Mary breaks it down — why it’s great to be a woman of a certain stature: “Were I a man, I would be on my estates now, or paying court to Her Majesty like Henry, or seeing to matters of state like Matthew. Instead I am here in my laboratory with you. Weighing it all in the balance, I believe we are the better off—even if we are sometimes put on a pedestal or mistaken for a kitchen stool.” Mary’s round eyes twinkled. 
  • Matthew and Henry show up. Diana: NOOOOOOOO! I always lost track of time while there were alchemical manuscripts around, and I looked up, dazed, when Matthew and Henry walked in to the laboratory. Mary and I had been deep in conversation about the images in a collection of alchemical texts known as the Pretiosa Margarita Novella—the New Pearl of Great Price. Was it already late afternoon? “It can’t be time to go. Not yet,” I protested. “Mary has this manuscript—” 
  • Henry is antsy and excited about something! Presents! “Is it time now, Mary?” he asked the countess, shifting in his chair. “You have the same enthusiasm for giving presents as young William does,” she replied with a laugh. “Henry and I have a gift in honor of the New Year and your marriage.” 
  • William Herbert’s (Mary's young son) contributions to the Boldleian are brought up here. 
  • Matthew saved Philip’s life during the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre. 
  • We discuss the connotations of the way these Hilliard portraits are painted. Hilliard did the preliminary sketches, but his apprentice completed the portraits; Isaac Oliver tended to be more risqué in compostion than Hilliard.
  • This is the first actual picture that Matthew had of Diana! We go on and discuss what may have been going on that no one stopped to take pictures while they were in courtships. We veer off of the road while ribbing Jean for her unitentional Apple advertisement! 😂
  • Miniatures by Hilliard are sought after! This may be a problem for history, but we think big picture . . . “Miniatures by Nicholas Hilliard are sought after, Matthew. These won’t disappear when we do. And they’re so exquisite I couldn’t bear to destroy them before we go.” Time was like my ruff: It started out as a smooth, flat, tightly woven fabric. Then it was twisted and cut and made to double back on itself. “We keep touching the past in ways that are bound to leave smudges on the present.” “Maybe that’s what we’re supposed to be doing,” Matthew suggested. “Perhaps the future depends on it.”
Modern-day St. James Garlickhythe
* (46:40) – The trip to Susanna’s, and the witchy placement exam.
  • We slag off Mr. Norman some more . . .
  • We discuss Susanna’s living arrangements — and how we feel about her not taking Annie in, when she appeared to live in a nice part of town (on Garlic Hill -- or what we now know as St James Garlickhythe)
  • Susanna and Sophie are ancestors! “I can’t believe it,” I whispered as soon as the Normans were out of sight. “She has to be Sophie’s great-grandmother many times over.” “Sophie must be descended through either Jeffrey or John.” Matthew pulled thoughtfully on his chin. “One of those boys is the missing link in our chain of circumstances that leads from Kit and the silver chess piece to the Norman family and on to North Carolina. 
  • Jeffery and Jon observe Matthew; reminds us of the trick or treating scene in ADOW (with Sam and Rob's bet); from ADOW: “Rob swore he saw a vampire here the other day. I bet him twenty bucks the Bishops wouldn’t let one in the house.” Jean also brings up the fact that a grown up vampire and witch knock on Susanna's door!
  • Jeffery demonstrates that he has power. “Is this him?” the elder said. He studied Matthew with interest, then turned his attention on me. The child had power. Though he was still on the brink of adolescence, his abilities could already be felt in the crackle of undisciplined magic that surrounded him. 
  • NOT YOU, WEARH! “Not you, wearh. My business is with your wife. The Golden Gosling has decent wine, if you are determined to remain nearby. But it would be better for all concerned if you were to let your man see Mistress Roydon home.” 
  • Pierre will be in the courtyard; the vampire . . . standing guard, while Matthew goes to find something (maybe, someone?) satisfactory in the Golden Gosling. “Thank you for the advice, mistress. I’m sure I’ll find something satisfactory at the inn. Pierre will wait in the courtyard. He doesn’t mind the cold.” Matthew gave her a wolfish smile. 
  • Yet another witch exam. “That’s uncomfortable,” I said, turning my head to break the intensity of Susanna’s gaze. “It should be,” she said calmly. “Why do you require my help, mistress?” 
  • Elemental vs. Craft witches . . . claim your house! “Perhaps you are better suited to the craft, then. Though many wish to possess the rough magics of water and fire, they are not easy to come by,” said Susanna with a touch of pity.  
  • The test. “Sit, and tuck your hands beneath your legs.” Mystified, I did as she requested. “Annie and I are going to Widow Hackett’s house. While we’re gone, you are to get the contents of that egg into the bowl without using your hands. It requires two spells: a motion spell and a simple opening charm. My son John is eight, and he can already do it without thinking.” 
  • It’s only when Diana’s mind wanders that things start to happen. We discuss stream of consciousness, and empathy. We also discuss Matthew’s capacity for empathy. Did chickens get morning sickness? I tilted my head and looked at the egg. Some poor hen had been robbed of her unhatched chick to feed the Norman family. My nausea increased. Perhaps I should consider vegetarianism, at least during the pregnancy.
  • Peep! Would our child feel like that, floating in the depths of my womb? If not, was there a spell for it? One woven from responsibility, that would wrap the baby in care and warmth and love yet be gentle enough to give him both safety and freedom? “That’s my real desire,” I whispered. Peep. 
  • We discuss the possibility of the glaem being a weaver trait. “Yes. That’s the glaem left over from Mistress Roydon’s new spell. Go. Fetch Goody Alsop.” Susanna spun her niece around and sent her back the way she came. 
  • Diana: “I failed!” “I didn’t get the egg into the bowl, Mistress Norman,” I apologized. “The spells didn’t work.” 
  • We end this chapter with this: “Didn’t work? I am beginning to think you know nothing about being a witch,” said Susanna incredulously. I was beginning to think she was right.
* (1:05:02) Housekeeping is brought to us by Leslie Planitzer! Leslie, Val mispronounced your last name! Sorry, we'll do better next time! Thank you Jody, Melanie, and Christine! And thank you, StrangeRadio for your odd, yet wonderful review!

* (1:12:22) Save it for the show is brought to us by Marty Pechauer! TOPIC: Please use legal means to watch the TV show. In summary, do the anti-Baldwin: wait your turn like a good girl (or boy!)

* (1:18:48) – Last thoughts/things we cannot leg go of - we have a few, so itemization is a must!
  • Angela talks about the press packet that came out from Sky Corporate. She also discusses the countries that will be broadcasting A Discovery of Witches. You can see Deb's main announcement here (follow her on Facebook to keep current, because she's added more since this post) ---> Television Broadcast Update
  • Jean is concerned about the treatment Baldwin will be getting on the TV show. Jean thinks they will be pouring fuel to the asshole fire. Angela agrees, and adds that according to the episode synopsis, Baldwin seems to be reduced to a getaway driver in the rescue -- but she is determined not to prejudge and/or put her eggs all in one basket. Valerie reminds Jean of the advice she gave listeners on our last episode . . . Jean's get-out-of-jail-free card is this episode (Take 5), and the wishes we put in the universe back then. She'll gawk over Domenico if need be!
  • Val's last thought is the fact that we got the following email in our individual inboxes and can't do a thing about it! With 2 weeks notice, expired passports, real-life jobs, life-partners, kids (human, canine and feline), last minute arrangements, playing Jenga with our schedules -- we could go on -- it would have taken at least 50 miracles for us to pull this off. Luckily, we have friends who'll be going and sharing the experience with the rest of us! Be sure to follow @AllSoulsCon and @TheTenthKnotnet on Twitter and Instagram to enjoy the whole thing through their eyes! 💗 The next best thing!(?) That's balm we are currently soothing ourselves with (perhaps some cocktails to wash down our lies will also help 😂😏😜). Stay tuned! Love you, Laura & Karen!
Oh -- and the email:

Heartbreaking, right? 😭😭😭 Happy to be invited, but imagine turning this down!
It seems we're having our own red-carpet party! Dress code? Seventies attire! Food: Hors d'Oeuvres of the same era! Sophie gets it! Check out how she's dressed below. Ain't no party like a daemon party! WOOOOOOO!

Picture of our daemon friends! Picture from the press packet from Sky Corporate
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Credits/Copyright Information * Intro music: "Ghost Dance" (edited down to second chorus) by Kevin Macleod, licensed for use by Creative Commons.
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This was a Daemon Production

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