Thursday, March 29, 2018

Daemons Discuss - Podcast: Take 35! | Chapter Discussion about the All Souls Trilogy; Chapter 11 of Shadow of Night

We went a little Dracula-dramatic for this promo pic. If we were feeling extra, we'd add drops of blood, but alas ...

Take 35 - The One With Wordplay, Swordplay, and Bloodplay

Description: Well, the title tells the story. Wordplay: Matthew Clairmont and Philippe de Clermont have words to throw at each other! Sharp and pointed like the swords they pick up later, we learn how they interact in conflict. Swordplay: We watch how the words are interchangeable with daggers and swords in the hay barn. Bloodplay: We find out for the first time in this series that Matthew has an affliction -- blood rage. Diana Bishop is also made Philippe's blood-sworn daughter. What does this mean? It means she will not be alone in the world when she is confronted by enemies, even if they come in the form of a witch named André Champier.

Another jam-packed episode! Take it in shifts, split it on your commute between home and work, zone out during the extra 20 minutes ... or just listen to the whole thing in one caffeine-fueled binge session #nojudgement. 😝

SPOILER ALERT! We (The Daemons) approach this podcast with an assumption that the listener has read The All Souls Trilogy, including A Discovery of Witches, Shadow of Night, and The Book of Life. If you haven't, and you don't mind, we certainly don't mind!  😊  Let's do this. *Note - this podcast is labeled 'explicit'

Find Daemons Discuss:  Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Google Play | iHeartRadio | Spotify | RSS | + More!

Listen:

Download .Mp3 of this episode

1. Show notes:

For newcomers to the series:- We'll start with the basics: The books in discussion are A Discovery of Witches, Shadow of Night and The Book of Life.  Together they make The All Souls Trilogy by Deborah Harkness.
- Our Daemon Guides to the All Souls Trilogy are available for download: ADOW, SON, TBOL

Deb's newsletter - The Blast; subscribe on her website
- If you'd like a ready-reference from the author herself, be sure to download the All Souls Real-Time Reading companion (free e-book at online booksellers via Penguin and Headline books).
- Deborah Harkness usually conducts a real-time reading on her Facebook Page (starting in September), and shares her posts across social media. Check out her website for all of her social media links, and of course all that she has to offer her readers! Be sure to sign up for her newsletter while you are there!
- To see what's available on the web as far as the All Souls universe fandom, check our links page.

In this episode:
* (00:53) - This podcast is brought to you by our patrons! Thank you! The chapter discussion is brought to you by Angela Page. Thank you, NE Angela!

* (01:25) - Thank you Linda (M), for your voice mail (via Speakpipe)

* (02:58) - Discusser emails: thank you, NE Angela, Melanie, Lauren, Patricia, Ashley, Asli & last but never least, our Discusser in Chief, Stephen! Full emails can be read here.

* (11:17) - Jean brings up an interview with Deb; here it is: Deborah Harkness on BookTalk Nation

Chapter 11

Niccolò Sfondrati aka Pope Gregory XIV
* (13:20) - Matthew writing the pope! Jean speculates that he's complaining about Philippe to him, and Angela thinks that maybe he was writing poetry on the sly and just told Philippe he was writing the pope! Here are some trivia tidbits: Niccolò did NOT want to be the pope, and he died of gall stones (of all things, right?). Read more . . .

* (15:40) - Matthew has gotten slow, and Philippe points that out. Matthew responds!
 “I should have targeted Diana. You would have moved faster.”“You must forgive me for ruining your sport.” Matthew was coldly furious. “It’s been some time since I’ve had a knife thrown at me. I fear I am out of practice.”
* (16:58) - No one should go in the lower barn . . .
“No one should go to the lower barn until told otherwise,” Philippe said as he rammed his weapon back into its leather sheath.“I had apprehended as much, sieur.” It was as close to a reproach as Alain was ever likely to utter.
* (18:40) - Jean breaks Margo down for us. She mentions our post on Catherine de Médici. Read further on Marguerite of Valois
“The company of women, eh?” Philippe pulled on his beard and looked at Matthew, openly calculating just how much further he could push his son. “Why did I not think of it before? While we wait for Diana’s witch to arrive from Lyon, we should send her to Margot for instruction on how to behave like a proper French lady.”
Louis de Clermont
* (19:52) - Louis de Clermont - Louis de Clermont, seigneur de Bussy d'Amboise (1549–1579) was a gentleman at the court of French king Henri III, a swordsman, dandy, and a lover of both sexes. He was one of the favorites, or "mignons", of Monsieur, brother of the king. He was a cousin of François d'Amboise.
“What Louis and Margot get up to at Usson is worse than anything they did in Paris. That woman isn’t a proper role model for anyone, least of all my wife,” Matthew told his father with a withering look. “Unless they’re more careful, people are going to know that Louis’s carefully managed, very expensive assassination was a sham.”
* (21:32) - The passions of others . . .
“For someone wedded to a witch you are quick to judge the passions of others, Matthaios. Louis is your brother.”
* (23:30) - Philippe's daughters
“Because Philippe’s daughters were so terrifying we held a family council and begged him to stop making them. Stasia can strip the paint from walls simply by looking at them, and Verin makes her look meek. As for Freyja . . . well, Philippe named her after the Norse goddess of war for a reason.”
* (24:00) - The stillroom bets
Étienne, my other errant assistant, ran into the room, whispered in his partner’s ear, and received something shiny in exchange.“Milord encore,” the boy whispered back.“What are you betting on, Thomas?” I demanded. The two of them looked at me blankly and shrugged. Something about their studied innocence made me concerned for Matthew’s welfare. “The hay barn. Where is it?” I said, ripping off my apron.
* (24:40) - The hay barn scene ... here is the clump of events that happen during this time stamp:
  • Patrick Wyman - Deb's colleague, and fight consultant for this scene. Here is an article he wrote for the New York Post: MMA fighting made me a better historian. Check out his podcasts: The Fall of Rome Podcast & The Tides of History.
  • Matthew is distracted . . . by Diana - Matthew swore. “Did you give away all of your best lines?” he demanded. Then he saw me.What happened next took place in a heartbeat. Matthew began to straighten from his fighting crouch, his attention fixed on the hayloft where I stood. 
  • Diana enters the ring, and Philippe scolds Matthew. "Is this why you lost?" 
  • We discuss how he could be assassin if he was so easily distracted. The factor was Diana.
  • Diana is instructed to stay clear of Matthew when he's fighting. Ha! Good luck with that, Philippe!
  • The meaning of the wedding ring. Matthew chose the dark version of the tale told by the ring: “My whole life, and the end of it. And a warning to remember the past.” 
  • The purposely induced blood rage. This is the first time the reader has ever heard of blood rage! Not all of the vampires are prone to it. We learn Louisa and Matthew both have this disease via Ysabeau (who is a carrier). Matthew is susceptible when he's tired, hungry.
  • Eleanor! This scene is highly instructive as to how she died. 
  • Pierre. Awwww... SPLAT! 
  • Millenials, as we promised -- Monty Python! Here's the scene: Monty Python & the Holy Grail "Flesh Wound" clip
  • Te absolvo. Philippe figures it out. Even if it's not exactly how it actually happened, absolution has been granted, regardless of circumstance.
  • Diana talks Matthew back to his senses. “That’s your father and Pierre,” I said, taking Matthew’s face in my hands. Incrementally, the black in his eyes retreated as a ring of dark green iris appeared first, then a sliver of gray, then the distinctive pale celadon that rimmed the pupil. 
  • Blood sworn daughter?! Wha? “With this mark you are reborn, my blood-sworn daughter and forever a member of my family.” 
  • Time is spooling in the corners! Philippe’s words set them alight with shimmering strands of color—not just blue and amber but green and gold. The noise made by the threads rose to a soft keen of protest. Another family awaited me in another time after all. 
  • Who will stand for Madame? Jean compares Philippe to Oprah right here. YOU GET TO GIVE YOUR LIFE, AND YOU GET TO GIVE YOUR LIFE! 
  • Think and stay alive! Diana asks about her future responsibility to the family. Philippe delivers: “To think, as you did today. Think—and stay alive.”
  •  The continuity problem with the story of Benjamin. "Continuity problem": Angela's euphemism for not telling the truth. Jean, though? "[...]He's living on a throne of LIES!"
Krampus in the corner! An alternative to Elf in the Shelf!
* (49:33) - Krampus! We discuss the fact that Champier shows up the same day as Krampus!

* (50:00) - The Champier scene
  • The pleasantries between Philippe and the witch - “This is André Champier,” Philippe said. “He is a printer, from Lyon. Perhaps you have heard of his cousin, the esteemed physician, now alas departed from this world and no longer able to share his wisdom on matters philosophical and medical.” 
  • This witch was more dangerous than Peter and Satu! Peter Knox had been mentally invasive, and Satu had inflicted great pain at La Pierre, but this witch was different and somehow even more dangerous.
  •  Diana's witch inspections seem to always go bad! We bring up her experience as a young witch with the Bishop grimoire, Satu looking for powers by opening her up, and Widow Beaton.
  • The one blue eye and the one brown eye. We discuss the possibility of Rebecca's eye colors. We bring up Timothy (who had two different color eyes); however when we met Timothy in the previous book, he was of no direct consequence to Diana so she (and we) paid no attention as a result.
  • Philippe is great story teller! “Who can tell what horrors she has seen or been subjected to?” Philippe said with a shrug. “Her husband had been dead ten days when we found her in an isolated farmhouse. Madame Roydon might have fallen victim to all kinds of predators.” 
  • The violation of her flesh - He stroked the flesh on my palm, progressing deliberately over each finger in an intimate search for information. My stomach flipped. 
  • Philippe's muscle ticking!“Does her flesh give you knowledge of her secrets?” Philippe sounded only mildly curious, but there was a muscle ticking in his neck. 
  • Angela compares the similarities of vampires and witches; they both drew information via blood or magical examination.
  • Someone has been "enjoying her,"😂 this phrase cracks Valerie up! “You see? Someone has been enjoying her. I am not the only one who wishes to know more about this English witch.” 
  • Think...stay alive! This advice came in handy more sooner than later . . . Think. Stay alive. I repeated Philippe’s instructions from yesterday. 
  • The Marathon Man scene that Angela was referring to --> Is It Safe?
  • Taking the thoughts and secrets from the root. The major revelation by Jean and Angela!!! WOW! Is this how Philippe knew that it was possible to preserve certain memories, while deleting others?
  • Champier notes the mark on Diana's head. “But this is very strange. Why did a manjasang put his blood here?” 
  • On first read, we had no idea what he saw. His fingers kept probing my mind. Champier’s eyes opened in wonder. “But this is impossible. How can she be a—” 
  • Diana thought and stayed alive. She stabs Champier with Philippe's knife. A dagger stuck out between two of Champier’s ribs, the weapon’s blade buried deep within his chest. My fingers were wrapped tightly around the hilt. When he scrabbled to dislodge it, I pushed it in further. The wizard’s knees began to crumple. 
  • Diana's army shows up a little late. [...]Thomas and Étienne pelted into the room, a dazed Catrine in tow. They stopped, stunned. Alain and Pierre hovered in the hallway with the blacksmith, Chef, and the two soldiers who usually stood by the front gate.“Vous avez bien fait,” Philippe assured them. “It is over now.”
* (1:06:53) - Philippe's explanation as far as his perceived lack of action.
“As recently as yesterday, it would have been your responsibility to intervene on your mate’s behalf. Had you failed to do so, it would have proved that your commitment to the witch was not what it should be.”
             “And today?” I asked.
             Philippe studied me. “Today you are my daughter. So no, I would not have let Champier’s attack go much further. But I didn’t need to do anything, Diana. You saved yourself.”
* (1:08:28) - A wedding announcement!
             “You and Matthew survived one test in the church and another in the hay barn. The blood swearing was simply the first step in making you a de Clermont. And now it’s time to finish it.” Philippe turned toward his second-in-command. “Fetch the priest, Alain, and tell the village to assemble at the church on Saturday. Milord is getting married, with book and priest and all of Saint-Lucien to witness the ceremony. There will be nothing hole-in-corner about this wedding.”
* (1:09:20) - Marrying amid bloodshed is a family tradition! We wonder about him and Ysabeau in their day. We got the story (somewhat) in The Book of Life!
 “Nonsense. Marrying amid bloodshed is a de Clermont family tradition,” Philippe said briskly. “We only seem to mate creatures who are desired by others. It is a messy business.”
* (1:10:37) - Please remove Mr. Champier.
 “Alain, Pierre, please remove Monsieur Champier. He is upsetting madame. The rest of you have too much to do to remain here gawking.” Philippe waited until the three of us were alone before he continued.
* (1:12:10) - Diana's proposal to Matthew
 “Will you marry me, Matthew?” Given that I was a murderer, it seemed only right to ask.
             Philippe gave a choking cough.
             “Yes, Diana. I will marry you. I already have, but I’m happy to do it again to please you.”
* (1:13:37) - We end the chapter here . . .
 “You have found a woman who is worthy of you, with courage and hope to spare, Matthaios.”
             “I know,” Matthew said, taking my hand.
             “Know this, too: You are equally worthy of her. Stop regretting your life. Start living it.”
* (1:13:50) Housekeeping! Brought to you by Shelli Carter! Thank you, CWsupergirl for your wonderful review!

* (1:15:25) Save it for the show - brought to you by Melanie Nelson! Topic: A refresher in empathy. We discuss the exercise we conducted at All Souls Con 2017, and re-iterate the fact that you don't have to like a character to have empathy for them. Mainly, it's in exercise in seeing what circumstances would/could have led them to the choices they made. It was brought up in the All Souls Discussion Group, and we absolutely understand that that is a platform to to talk, and maybe vent frustrations with a character, however we hope one wouldn't discount the added character study to employ empathy in each case.

* (1:26:50) Promo break – scroll down, or click here to get a hold of us and/or become a Discusser -- information on joining our Facebook group also located on that page. Those of you with US numbers can text ADOW to 444999 to become a Discusser.

* (1:28:11) - Last thoughts. Jean theorizes that Matthew was scared of Philippe when they arrived at Sept-Tours, because he didn't risk the possibility of getting yanked out of the bed (Baldwin-in-TBOL-style) by trying to sneak in Diana's sleeping quarters. Val tells us that it is Patreon day! We got paid! It's real! Angela keeps us up with book news and reports that Deb is editing Time's Convert, which means that we'll have it in our hands pretty soon!

Here are some last minute things we didn't include in this episode:

All Souls Con 2018
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  • * NOTE: Please keep in mind that this group is only a supplement to our podcast. We recommend that you join only if you truly enjoy the podcast and want to discuss things further. Listening just to gain entry will be a waste of our time, and frankly yours! The screening process has been intensified to keep membership intimate, and to try to keep out folks who don’t have the best intentions for the group and its dynamic. It's an imperfect process, but we are determined to keep it a healthy place for speculation and more detailed discussion for all members, including us. When we opened the group, we decided to require listener-only membership because podcasting is a very personal medium. People who listen tend to know how we are and think. Those who like what we have to say (and don't find us too abrasive/foul-mouthed/opinionated 😈), will most likely enjoy the group to its fullest, and utilize it as a sounding board with other like-minded members who have the ability to peacefully discuss divergent or opposing ideas. We don't have time to worry about mal-intent, because it breeds drama and discourse. If we're not comfortable, then the rest of the members won't be comfortable. None of this is negotiable. It's simply how it is. This is why the Facebook group is not public and we don't advertise it on Deb's website, social media, or other venues.
Previous Episode
Take 34 - The One With the Baggage
-----

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Thursday, March 15, 2018

Daemons Discuss - Podcast: Take 34! | Chapter Discussion about the All Souls Trilogy; Chapter 10 of Shadow of Night

Oh, Matthew....

Take 34 - The One With the Baggage

Description: Matthew Clarimont has a ton of baggage and Philippe de Clermont is giving Diana decluttering advice! It's time to unpack! Later on, we add our own baggage to the pile. Long episode, so those of you sticking to your New Year's resolutions (good for you, btw!👏) will get an extra long work out! Special thanks goes to our patrons, as this is our first officially patron-sponsored podcast episode.

SPOILER ALERT! We (The Daemons) approach this podcast with an assumption that the listener has read The All Souls Trilogy, including A Discovery of Witches, Shadow of Night, and The Book of Life. If you haven't, and you don't mind, we certainly don't mind!  😊  Let's do this. *Note - this podcast is labeled 'explicit'

Find Daemons Discuss:  Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Google Play | iHeartRadio | Spotify | RSS | + More!

Listen:

Download .Mp3 of this episode

1. Show notes:

For newcomers to the series:- We'll start with the basics: The books in discussion are A Discovery of Witches, Shadow of Night and The Book of Life.  Together they make The All Souls Trilogy by Deborah Harkness.
- Our Daemon Guides to the All Souls Trilogy are available for download: ADOW, SON, TBOL

Deb's newsletter - The Blast; subscribe on her website
- If you'd like a ready-reference from the author herself, be sure to download the All Souls Real-Time Reading companion (free e-book at online booksellers via Penguin and Headline books).
- Deborah Harkness usually conducts a real-time reading on her Facebook Page (starting in September), and shares her posts across social media. Check out her website for all of her social media links, and of course all that she has to offer her readers! Be sure to sign up for her newsletter while you are there!
- To see what's available on the web as far as the All Souls universe fandom, check our links page.

In this episode:
* (01:24) - This podcast is brought to you by our patrons! Please excuse our zealous excitement, as this is our very first patron-sponsored episode. This chapter discussion is brought to you by Melanie Nelson. Thank you, Melanie!

Chapter 10
* (02:51) - Matthew's reluctance to feed in front of Diana.
 “Good morning, Philippe.”
             “Diana.” Philippe nodded. “Come, Matthew. You must feed. Since you will not do so in front of your wife, we will hunt.”
The Ghost of Christmas Present.
* (03:22) - Philippe reminds Jean of the Ghost of Christmas present.

* (05:34) - A hungry, tired vampire is a terrible traveling buddy for a warmblooded witch. Jean points out that Baldwin delivered a similar message in the Book of Life to Diana.
“You must attend to your own needs, Matthaios. A famished, exhausted manjasang is not an ideal traveling companion for anyone, least of all a warmblooded witch.”
* (07:07) - Diana sends him on his way.
“Don’t worry about me. I have plenty to do,” I said, taking his hand in mine to give it a reassuring squeeze.
* (07:29) - The courtyard workshops . . .
By late morning I was desperate for some fresh air, and persuaded Alain to take me on a tour of the courtyard workshops. Almost everything the château residents needed, from candles to drinking water, could be found there.
* (08:11) - Diana's mental notes for her anticipated return to her life as a historian.
I tried to remember every detail of how the blacksmith smelted his metals, aware that the knowledge would be useful when I returned to my real life as a historian.
* (09:33) - Whoops. Wasn't paying attention to the road. We veered right into the ditch with airline woes.

Will's take on "spirit of wine"
* (11:05) - Spirit of Wine, we looked it up. We were correct (it happens occasionally!) It is refined alcohol.

* (11:38) - Alain finds Diana practically naked in Marthe's still room (well, for the times, she basically was.)
Alain surveyed the room, aghast. My dark sleeveless robe was flung over the back of a nearby chair, my heavy velvet sleeves were draped over the edge of a copper pot, and my bodice hung from the ceiling on a convenient pothook. Though relatively unclothed by sixteenth-century standards, I still wore a corset, a  high-necked, long-sleeved linen smock, several petticoats, and a voluminous skirt—far more clothing than I normally wore to lecture. Feeling naked nonetheless, I lifted my chin and dared Alain to say a word. Wisely, he looked away.
* (12:03) - Diana's luxurious little life.
With the exception of the hour spent at the forge, my day so far had been typical of a noblewoman’s of the time. Feeling that I’d made good progress toward my goal of fitting in, I spent several pleasant hours reading and practicing my handwriting. When I heard the musicians setting up for the last feast before the monthlong fast I asked them to give me a dancing lesson. Later I treated myself to an adventure in the stillroom and was soon happily occupied with a glorified double boiler, a copper still, and a small barrel of old wine. 
* (14:22) - The chaos in the main hall when Matthew arrives.
 “Enough.” Though his voice was low, the warning in Matthew’s tone was unmistakable. Heads swiveled in his direction. “You should have instructed them to start without us. Let me take you upstairs, Diana.” Heads swiveled back to me, waiting for my reply.
             “I have not finished,” I said, gesturing at my plate, “nor have the others. Sit by me and take some wine.” Matthew might be a Renaissance prince in substance as well as style, but I would not heel when he clicked his fingers.
* (15:26) - It turns out that animal blood doesn't sustain like human blood does; thanks for letting us know, Philippe!
How was your hunting, Philippe?”
             “Adequate. But animal blood provides only so much nourishment.” He beckoned to Alain, and his cold eyes nudged my high collar.
* (16:34) - Jean compares the great hall dinner scene to Siege Perilous, but worse.

* (17:11) - It's Diana's time to go to bed, and Philippe wants to play chess with Matthew afterwards.
“Finished so soon?” Philippe asked with surprise. “Good night, then, Diana. Matthew, you will return at once. I have a strange desire to play chess.
* (17:24) - A woman of the time.
 Philippe is treating you like a glorified housekeeper. It’s intolerable.”
             “Your father is treating me like a woman of the time. I’ll manage, Matthew.”
* (17:59) - Dude, if you need blood, I've got some. No worries. Whoops . . .
“Philippe says you aren’t as strong as you should be.” My hand tightened on his. “If you need to feed and won’t take blood from a stranger, then I want you to take mine.”
             Before Matthew could respond, a chuckle came from the stairs. “Careful, Diana. We manjasang have sharp ears. Offer your blood in this house and you’ll never keep the wolves at bay.” Philippe was standing with arms braced against the sides of the carved stone archway.
             Matthew swung his head around, furious. “Go away, Philippe.”
Is it any wonder we compare Philippe to Endora from Bewitched?! Poof! There you are! An otherworldy parent with snarky advice, ready to go!
* (18:10) - Now Philippe is reminding us of Endora of Bewitched! Millennials, here's your link: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057733/. Happy to serve!

* (18:32) - Careful, Diana . . .
“Careful, Diana. We manjasang have sharp ears. Offer your blood in this house and you’ll never keep the wolves at bay.”
* (21:19) - Diana reveals her scars . . .
 “What a fool you are, to allow a besotted manjasang to take the blood from not only your arm but your neck,” Philippe said, stunned. “The covenant forbids the manjasang to take the blood of witches or daemons. Matthew knows this.”
* (22:13) - Matthew won't be able to let Diana go.
“So that’s it. My son has no doubt convinced himself that so long as he has taken only your blood and not your body, he will be able to let you go.” Philippe shook his head. “He is wrong. I’ve been watching him. You will never be free of Matthew, whether he beds you or not.”
Giovanni Battista Tiepolo (Italy 1696-1770) – Orpheus Rescuing Eurydice from the Underworld
* (24:12) - Matthew's attitude towards the thought of the end of Diana's life reminds Jean of Orpheus and Eurydice 

* (25:11) - Matthew's God is never satisfied.
“It is too bad that Matthew is a Christian. His God is never satisfied.”
             “How so?” I asked, perplexed by the sudden change of topic.
             “When you or I have done wrong, we settle our accounts with the gods and return to living with the hope of doing better in future. Ysabeau’s son confesses his sins and atones again and again—for his life, for who he is, for what he has done. He is always looking backward, and there is no end to it.”
* (27:04) - Angela's mental checklist of Philippe's sons.
"[...]For every manjasang it is different. My sons chose other paths—war, love, mating, conquest, the acquisition of riches. For Matthew it was always ideas.”
* (28:39) - We conclude Philippe is setting Diana up for success; little did we know it at first read.
“Matthew goes to the church in the village around midday, when you think he is looking for your book. It’s where he went today.” Philippe’s remark was strangely disconnected from our conversation. “You might follow him one day. Perhaps then you would come to know him better.”
* (29:40) - The JZB principle: Words are meaningless. Actions matter. We are referring to Jerricho Barrons from the Fever Series by Karen Marie Moning. He is one of "The Nine"

* (40:22) - The church scene. Several things happen here...
  • Matthew's clothing sets the scene for us; it makes the reader uncomfortable even though it doesn't affect Matthew. Diana even invites them to go back to the chateau (because it's more comfortable).
  • The church (according to Matthew is for suffering).
  • Valerie gets the last judgement explained to her (wacky pagans! Pagans, don't get riled up ... the wacky pagan is the one that actually transcribed the show notes. Deep breaths, people. Deep breaths...)
  • Jean thinks that Matthew believed that the message (the paintings)was meant for him.
  • It's Lucas' birthday. We see Blanca and Lucas' crypt in the church. We also discuss why they may be buried inside of the church.
  • Angela points out Luca's name, along with Blanca (bright/white).
  • Matthew describes the relationship with Blanca from his point of view. But we aren't sure it's entirely accurate. Angela points out that Matthew went into the ditch here. The story goes on to detail the marriage, the miscarriages, the success with Lucas. Jean makes some connections with the dates of conception and marriage with Lucas/Blanca.
  • Matthew gets a bit fatalistic and "extra" with his view of the way he looked at the relationship. Phrases like "filling her with death," alarmed us!
  • Jean rolls out of the back of the wagon!
  • After we collect ourselves, we agree that Matthew has an arrogant view about women's thoughts of him. Then we go on to conclude why Matthew always likes fragile things.
  • Philippe despises Matthew? Matthew, c'mon. Get a grip!
  • Matthew confesses his attempted suicide.
  • Matthew was the one to take Philippe's life. We find out about the Nazi story (we didn't know about it prior ... only what Baldwin's diatribe alluded to in A Discovery of Witches)
  • Matthew is convinced that Hugh would have fixed this. We're not so sure.
  • Philippe was tired, according to Matthew. Matthew knowing how this feels, could relate and says this is why he agreed to the act of draining Philippe of life.
  • The only memories that remain unbroken for Philippe are of Ysabeau.
  • Matthew views himself as a killer, and Diana sees that clearly right now. She loves him regardless.
  • Matthew was tasked with the care of Ysabeau, and keeping the brotherhood together. He wonders if it's Philippe's madness that's driving him. We contend that Philippe is cognizant of what he's doing.
  • The dove shows up as a sign of resurrection and hope. If you'd like more of our analysis of that you can read this piece: Aurora Consurgens: A Relationship Roadmap.
  • He thanks Diana for the confessional; right here is where we wonder if when Matthew tells the entire truth, he considers it confessional (because he did it with Sarah the prior book).
  • Diana gives Matthew a feather from the dove.
  • Church scene: FIN.
* (56:35) - Philippe: "Welp! Did you find him?"
 “Did you find him in the church?” he asked quietly. The sight of him—so hale and hearty—made my heart drop. How had Matthew endured it?
* (58:04) - Guilt, yes. Grief, no.
“Matthew told you about his own death, too.” Philippe tugged his fingers through his hair, a rougher version of his son’s habitual gesture. “I understand grief, but not this guilt. When will he put the past behind him?”
* (58:48) - A witch is coming! And so is the end of this chapter.
“No. He is my son. I will not fail him.” Philippe’s mouth tightened. He turned and stalked away. “And I’ve received word from Lyon, madame,” he called over his shoulder. “A witch will arrive shortly to help you, just as Matthew wished.”
* (59:35) Housekeeping! Brought to you by Linda Zipp! Thank you Camille for your episode suggestion, and also -- referring to your January message -- an answer! We are now on Spotify. And thank you, Dacia, for your wonderful review.

* (1:03:06) Save it for the show - brought to you by Dr. Shelli Carter! Topic: All Souls Discussion Group -- under new management. Deb went from being an honorary admin to the ONLY admin. We all think this is a good thing. This group is the reason we are what we are! This is how we met. We discuss our spotty history with the group in the past as a whole, but we are happy that it appears to be a place that is much more inclusive moving forward. Then we meander into general social media woes ... it's a muddy ditch! And also chime in with our various Facebook gripes. Facebook. What a mess! Amirite?! 😆

* (1:19:38) Promo break – scroll down, or click here to get a hold of us and/or become a Discusser -- information on joining our Facebook group also located on that page. Those of you with US numbers can text ADOW to 444999 to become a Discusser.

* (1:20:50) Last Thoughts.  Jean pleas: If you are waiting to get in our Facebook group (there's a bunch of you!), "ANSWER THE DAMN QUESTIONS!" Angela and Valerie share the sentiment. Valerie adds a thanks to you patrons! The Aftershow episodes 0 & 1 are live as you listen to this.  Also! All Souls Con! Links below. Val goes on to say she'll speak more on her own personal group woes in The Aftershow. Jean laments that the Sept-Tours chapters will end really soon! Val shushes her and says "we're gonna live there for ever!"

All Souls Con 2018
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Take 33 - The One With the Puny Son
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Thursday, March 1, 2018

Daemons Discuss - Podcast: Take 33! | Chapter Discussion about the All Souls Trilogy; Chapter 9 of Shadow of Night

Herodotus - ask Val to say it 5x fast! Or even 1x slow . . .  (sad trombone!)
Take 33 - The One With the Puny Son

Description: Matthew Clairmont is absolutely puny according to Philippe de Clermont. He's not been taking care of himself properly, and needs exercise! While the Philippe takes care of his puny son, Diana Bishop's tasks are decidedly NOT puny. She needs to learn how to manage a staff, the household, her uncertainty, HER LIFE! We begin with a brooding, moody vampire in the antechambers, and end with a fascination with the whole gambit she's been set up for. She's playing for keeps, and Philippe is making sure of it!

Later in the episode, we review the unedited proof sampler of The World of All Souls (no spoilers), and give our initial impressions. Delight ensues! Happy listening!

SPOILER ALERT! We (The Daemons) approach this podcast with an assumption that the listener has read The All Souls Trilogy, including A Discovery of Witches, Shadow of Night, and The Book of Life. If you haven't, and you don't mind, we certainly don't mind!  😊  Let's do this. *Note - this podcast is labeled 'explicit'

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1. Show notes:

For newcomers to the series:- We'll start with the basics: The books in discussion are A Discovery of Witches, Shadow of Night and The Book of Life.  Together they make The All Souls Trilogy by Deborah Harkness.
- Our Daemon Guides to the All Souls Trilogy are available for download: ADOW, SON, TBOL

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- If you'd like a ready-reference from the author herself, be sure to download the All Souls Real-Time Reading companion (free e-book at online booksellers via Penguin and Headline books).
- Deborah Harkness usually conducts a real-time reading on her Facebook Page (starting in September), and shares her posts across social media. Check out her website for all of her social media links, and of course all that she has to offer her readers! Be sure to sign up for her newsletter while you are there!
- To see what's available on the web as far as the All Souls universe fandom, check our links page.

In this episode:

* (00:55) - Thank you, Stephen, Jody (also for the link to the song, The Christians and the Pagans), Melanie, NE Angela, Lauren & Iwona. See full Discusser emails --> here!

Chapter 9
* (09:31) - Diana finds Matthew brooding on the floor 
When my door swung open the next morning, Matthew was propped against the stone wall opposite. Judging from his state, he hadn’t gotten any sleep either. He sprang to his feet, much to the amusement of the two young serving women who stood giggling behind me. They weren’t used to seeing him this way, all mussed and tousled. A scowl darkened his face.
Wild Musk, by Coty! Our tween/teen senses loved this back in the day!
* (09:58) - We discuss the scent of civet, and we reminisced about our early memories of musk driven scents. We bring up Wild Musk by Coty, then are reminded of our first encounter with musk 10 years later by the popular cologne by Calvin Klein -- Obsession. Then we wandered a bit into the ditch with the recollection of the whole parade of strong scents like Red Door, Beautiful, and Poison — all very distinct scents which were very much inline with the times while we grew up as teens/young adults.

A brand of Kopi Lowak
* (12:13) - We think Louisa may have enjoyed the scent because it was lush, rich and indulgent - Jean likens it to the luxury of drinking the civet or “cat poop” coffee, aka… the most expensive coffee in the world! It's called Kopi Lowak, which is made by collecting the feces of the Civet cat who consumes the coffee beans. (🤢). Read more here: http://www.most-expensive.coffee/
 I stepped forward, cranberry skirts swinging. Like my bed, my servants, and practically everything else I touched, the outfit belonged to Louisa de Clermont. Her scent of roses and civet had been suffocatingly thick last night, emanating from the embroidered hangings that surrounded the bed.
* (12:44) - We discuss the fact that the strong scent of Matthew (cinnamon and cloves) brings Diana refreshment and comfort (based on her association), vs. Louisa’s equally strong scent (and she isn’t even there!).
I took a deep breath of cold, clear air and sought out the notes of clove and cinnamon that were essentially and indisputably Matthew.
* (13:27) - Good morning, Philippe.
A sudden gust around my ankles indicated that another witness had arrived. Our lips parted.
             “You are too old to moon about in antechambers, Matthaios,” his father commented
* (14:09) - The 12th century wasn’t good for Matthew, according to Philippe. He got called to the holy land from Paris; he was happy to be studying with Abelard. Jean mentioned the story of Heloise and Abelard - read it here!
“The twelfth century was not good for you, and we allowed you to read entirely too much poetry."
* (14:56) - Compose yourself! Jean makes a funny! 🤭😉.
Compose yourself before the men see you, please, and bring Diana downstairs.
* (15:30) - The beehive at midsummer; we were discussing Philippe’s comment about Diana's scent and compared it to Ysabeau’s statement addressing Diana’s scent in A Discovery of Witches
"[...] and bring Diana downstairs. She smells like a beehive at midsummer, and it will take time for the household to grow accustomed to her scent. We don’t want any unfortunate bloodshed.”
* (16:14) - Matthew whines a bit here:
“There would be less chance of that if you would stop interfering. This separation is absurd,” Matthew said, grasping my elbow. “We are husband and wife.”
* (17:50) - Matthew cobbles a shaky escape plan.
“Philippe is a meddler. As for finding a witch, he’s not much fonder of your people than is Maman.” Matthew studied the scarred wooden table and picked at a bit of candle wax that had trickled down into one of the cracks. “My house in Milan might do. We could spend Christmas there. Italian witches have a considerable reputation for magic and are known for their uncanny foresight.”
             “Surely not Milan.” Philippe appeared before us with the force of a hurricane and slid onto the bench next to me. Matthew carefully moderated his speed and strength in deference to warmblooded nerves. So, too, did Miriam, Marcus, Marthe, and even Ysabeau. His father showed no such consideration.
An image of the Italian Wars - Battle of Pavia. Artist unknown.
* (18:28) - The Borgias, the de' Medicis, and the Italian scuffles Matthew participated in (if not caused).

* (18:50) - Philippe's language entrance exams … Diana fails for the most part, but is informed that her Latin and French will need to improve because few in the household speak English.
“Diana will have to become more fluent in French and Latin. Only a few of our servants speak English, and none at all belowstairs.”
* (22:02) - The keys…
He tossed a heavy ring of keys across the table. My fingers opened automatically to catch them.
             “Absolutely not,” Matthew said, reaching to pluck them from my grasp. “Diana won’t be here long enough to trouble herself with the household.”
* (22:19) - Reading Herodotus and Aquinas seldom lead to bad behavior . . .  but reading the actual words Herodotus and Aquinas out loud causes Valerie’s tongue to behave terribly!
“We don’t lock up books in this house,” Philippe said, “only food, ale, and wine. Reading Herodotus or Aquinas seldom leads to bad behavior.”
* (23:16) - Leave the household to your woman. Also, the word PUNY!
Philippe grinned at his son. “You didn’t lose your combativeness when you lost your sense, I see. Leave the household to your woman and join me for a ride. You look puny and need proper exercise.” He rubbed his hands together in anticipation.
* (23:53) - Trier! The Trier Witch Trials
“Why is Ysabeau in Trier?” I asked.
“What does it matter?” he said evasively.
* (24:08) - If you truly loved me …
“Do you love me, Diana?” Matthew’s mild question surprised me.
             “Yes,” I responded instantaneously. “But if loving you were all that mattered, this would be simple and we would still be in Madison.”
             “It is simple.” Matthew rose to his feet. “If you love me, my father’s words don’t have the power to dissolve our promises to each other, any more than the Congregation can make us abide by the covenant.”
             “If you truly loved me, you would give yourself to me. Body and soul.”
             “That’s not so simple,”
* (25:00) - We discuss some hind-sight is 20/20 things with Matthew’s blood rage right here.

* (27:12) - How RUDE!
“Then bed him. If it’s me you want, you’ll wait.” Matthew was composed, but it was the calm of a frozen river: hard and smooth on the surface but raging underneath.
* (28:03) - Vampire divorce…NO.
“Because there is no such thing as vampire divorce. There’s mating and there’s death. Some vampires—my mother and Philippe included—separate for a time if there are”—he paused—“disagreements. They take other lovers. With time and distance, they resolve their differences and come together again. But that isn’t going to work for me.”
* (28:49) - Diana has to break it down for Matthew. Diana is finally making sense to us.
“You would rather be anywhere than here. I know that, Matthew. But Hancock was right: I wouldn’t last long in a place like London or Paris, where we might be able to find a willing witch. Other women will spot my differences straightaway, and they won’t be as forgiving as Walter or Henry. I’d be turned in to the authorities—or the Congregation—in a matter of days.”
* (30:11) - Boy, bye!
“I’m not playing house. I’m playing for keeps.” Matthew quirked his lips at my words, but it wasn’t a real smile. “Go. Spend time with your father. I’ll be too busy to miss you.”
The stars from the cast of the original Dynasty
* (30:44) - Millennial education alert! 1) About Krystle Carrington - “playing for keeps” is a very 70’s-80’s thing to say, and it reminded Jean of her talking Blake (her TV husband) down from a tree. Krystle was Blake Carrington’s wife in the TV drama Dynasty. 2) Angela brings up the song Gold, Girls, Guns - by Metric, because of similar lyrics containing the words "playing for keeps".

* (31:21) - The tells . . .
“Staring out the window doesn’t hide your thoughts, Pierre. It’s one of your master’s few tells, and every time he does it, I know he’s concealing something.
* (32:46) - Valerie likes Deb’s description of a tell.
“An outward sign of an inward concern. Matthew looks away when he’s anxious or doesn’t want to tell me something. And he runs his fingers through his hair when he doesn’t know what to do. These are tells.”
* (33:25) - Observation, not divination.
“[...] And I used observation, not divination, to know my husband.”
* (34:07) - Alain reminds Pierre of his place; he was being a bit familiar. The Daemons forgive him immediately!
“So he does, madame.” Pierre looked at me, awestruck. “Does milord know that you used a witch’s powers of divination to see into his soul? Madame de Clermont knows these habits, and milord’s brothers and father do as well. But you have known him for such a short time and yet know so much.”
             Alain coughed.
             Pierre looked horrified. “I forget myself, madame. Please forgive me.”
* (34:40) - Diana’s next in line in the chain of command. We also discuss the vampire clan's reliance on the servant class here (and wonder why they --Alain, Pierre, etc.-- put up with it?!)
“If I request something that would require the assistance of milord or, more important, his father, please tell me and we will change course immediately. They don’t need to worry about my small concerns.” The men looked wary but intrigued.
             “Òc,” Alain agreed with a nod.
* (35:45) - Chef! Popeye references; Diana’s ally list grows.
Then we decamped to the kitchens, where I had my first encounter with Chef. He was a human, as thin as a reed and no taller than Pierre. Like Popeye, he had all of his bulk concentrated in his forearms, which were the size of hams.
* (37:51) - The vessels that Matthew’s blood can be collected in, his pickiness, and Diana’s interest.
Milord needs blood. And he will not take it unless it is prepared just so.”
             Chef led me to the game room, where the carcasses of several beasts were suspended over silver troughs to catch the blood falling from their severed necks.
             “Only silver, glass, or pottery should be used to collect blood for milord, or he refuses it,” Chef instructed with a raised finger.
             “Why?” I asked.
             “Other vessels taint the blood with bad odors and tastes. This is pure. Smell,” Chef instructed, handing me the cup. My stomach heaved at the metallic aroma, and I covered my mouth and nose. Alain motioned the blood away, but I stopped him with a glance.
* (38:59) - The appetite comparison of Matthew and Ysabeau . . . then off into the ditch we go….
French listeners, feel free to chastise us for any generalizations we made. We deserve it! 😖😙
Madame de Clermont was not so fussy, Chef said with a sorrowful shake of his head, but she had not passed her impressive appetite to her son.
* (41:56) - Marthe’s room.
“Whose room is this?” I asked, my throat closing at the scent of the herbs that hung from the rafters.
             “It belongs to Madame de Clermont’s woman,” Alain explained.
             “Marthe,” I breathed, stepping over the threshold. Earthenware pots stood in neat rows on shelves, and the floor was swept clean. There was something medicinal—mint?—in the tang of the air. It reminded me of the scent that sometimes drifted from the housekeeper’s clothes. When I turned, the three of them were blocking the doorway.
             “The men are not allowed in here, madame,” Pierre confessed, looking over his shoulder as though he feared that Marthe might appear at any moment.
* (43:47) - The time was spooling in the room . . . we discuss what we think that means.
The blue and amber threads were there, just as I expected. I sensed something else as well, some other creature in some other time. My rosemary-scented fingers reached to make contact, but it was too late. Whoever it was had already gone, and the corner had returned to its normal, dusty self.
* (44:50) - THE DAMN TEA.
The lid lifted to reveal twelve equal compartments, each filled with a different substance. Parsley. Ginger. Feverfew. Rosemary. Sage. Queen Anne’s lace seeds. Mugwort. Pennyroyal. Angelica. Rue. Tansy. Juniper root. Marthe was well equipped to help the women of the village curb their fertility. I touched each in turn, pleased that I remembered their names and scents. My satisfaction turned quickly to shame, however. I knew nothing else—not the proper phase of the moon to gather them or what other magical uses they might have. Sarah would have known. Any sixteenth-century woman would have known, too.
             I shook off the regret. For now I knew what these herbs would do if I steeped them in hot water or wine. I tucked the box under my arm and joined the others in the kitchen.
* (45:22) - The calendar dis-junction.
“The English refuse the pope’s new calendar,” he said slowly, as if talking to a child. “So it is only the seventeenth day of November there, and the twenty-seventh day of November here in France.”
             I had timewalked more than four centuries and not lost a single hour, yet my trip from Elizabeth’s England to war-torn France had cost me nearly three weeks instead of ten days. I smothered a sigh and wrote the correct dates on the top of the page. My pen stilled.
* (46:46) - Valerie asks about Advent. We realize the fasting before Christmas seems to have completely reversed in modern times!
“That means Advent will begin on Sunday.”
             “Oui. The village—and milord, of course—will fast until the night before Christmas. The household will break the fast with the seigneur on the seventeenth of December.” How did a vampire fast? My knowledge of Christian religious ceremonies was of little help.
* (48:25) - Saturnalia
“What happens on the seventeenth?” I asked, making note of that date, too.
             “It is Saturnalia, madame,” Pierre said, “the celebration dedicated to the god of the harvest. Sieur Philippe still observes the old ways.”
             “Ancient” would be more accurate. Saturnalia hadn’t been practiced since the last days of the Roman Empire. I pinched the bridge of my nose, feeling overwhelmed
* (48:45) - Matthew returns … with Philippe. Philippe brings up the book History of the Franks. Angela thinks that Matthew inspires some of the stories.

* (50:18) - Diana demonstrates what she learned today.
“Merci, Alain.” I gestured at the tray. “You both must be hungry. Chef sent your meal here. Why don’t you tell me about your morning?”
             “I don’t need—” Matthew began. His father and I both made sounds of exasperation. Philippe deferred to me with a gentle incline of his head.
             “Yes you do,” I said. “It’s partridge blood, which you should be able to stomach at this hour. I hope you will hunt tomorrow, though, and Saturday, too. If you intend to fast for the next four weeks, you have to feed while you can.” I thanked Alain, who bowed, shot a veiled glance at his master, and left hastily. “Yours is stag’s blood, Philippe. It was drawn only this morning.”
             “What do you know of partridge blood and fasting?” Matthew’s fingers tugged gently on my loose curl. I looked up into my husband’s gray-green eyes.
             “More than I did yesterday.” I freed my hair before handing him his cup.
* (53:33) - We end the chapter (gavel slam!)
“How did you find the kitchens?” Matthew asked, turning the conversation in my direction.
             “Fascinating,” I said, meeting Philippe’s shrewd eyes with a challenging stare. “Absolutely fascinating.”
* (54:05) Housekeeping: Thanks Linda M. & Nancy! Also thanks goes to our reviewer, Midwifeandmoonlover (thank you, Dora!)

A look at the physical copy of The World of All Souls sampler.
* (56:40) Save It For the Show … Topic: We un-box the sampler of The World of All Souls, and share our impressions here (no spoilers!), and we describe what it is, and what we see in this 18 page sampler. If you are a Netgalley member, you can request it from here (it won't be the physical copy like the ones we received, but you'll be able to view on your e readers: The World of All Souls on Netgalley).

* (1:04:20) Promo break – scroll down, or click here to get a hold of us and/or become a Discusser -- information on joining our Facebook group also located on that page.

* (1:05:30) - Last thoughts:

The US cover design of Time's Convert

The Aftershow cover image; this is what patrons will see when they load the feed into their pod-catcher of choice!
  • Valerie talks about our Patreon page and thanks our current patrons. You are formally invited to become a patron, which will grant you access to The AfterShow! Imagine stripper💃 music while we entice you to throw us your dollar bills 😏! In all seriousness, we do not expect anything from you but to just enjoy Daemons Discuss! — 🙏we are so thankful to all of our listeners!  If you enjoy our show and want to help support us, the info is located here on the page: Patreon.com/DaemonsDiscuss
  • Angela talks about the wrap-up of the television show (she thought she'd sneak away from doing a last thought - cheeky Daemon!) See our TV news page for some behind the scenes goodness. We'll continue updating as we get more information!
Here are some last minute things we didn't include in this episode:
All Souls Con 2018
Join our Facebook Group
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  • The word: 'Fucking Firedrake.' Make sure you answer question 2! 
  • * NOTE: Please keep in mind that this group is only a supplement to our podcast. We recommend that you join only if you truly enjoy the podcast and want to discuss things further. Listening just to gain entry will be a waste of our time, and frankly yours! The screening process has been intensified to keep membership intimate, and to try to keep out folks who don’t have the best intentions for the group and its dynamic. It's an imperfect process, but we are determined to keep it a healthy place for speculation and more detailed discussion for all members, including us. When we opened the group, we decided to require listener-only membership because podcasting is a very personal medium. People who listen tend to know how we are and think. Those who like what we have to say (and don't find us too abrasive/foul-mouthed/opinionated 😈), will most likely enjoy the group to its fullest, and utilize it as a sounding board with other like-minded members who have the ability to peacefully discuss divergent or opposing ideas. We don't have time to worry about mal-intent, because it breeds drama and discourse. If we're not comfortable, then the rest of the members won't be comfortable. None of this is negotiable. It's simply how it is. This is why the Facebook group is not public and we don't advertise it on Deb's website, social media, or other venues.
Previous Episode
Take 32 - The One With the Prince
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Until next time...



Credits/Copyright Information 
* Intro music: "Ghost Dance" (edited down to second chorus) by Kevin Macleod, licensed for use by Creative Commons.
* News intro: by AwesomeMusicVideos21; provided for fair-use/royalty-free.
*  Outro music: Rimsky-Korsakov - "Scheherazade Symphonic Suite for Orchestra Op.35 - IV. Allegro molto," Public       

domain/copyright-free.
* Cover art (+ all variations associated w/ it): © Daemons Domain 

* The term "unofficial" is explained in our disclaimer located in Terms of Use - item 14.
* The Daemons Discuss podcast is hosted and produced by the owners (Angela, Jean and Valerie) of Daemons Domain and can also be found by entering the url http://www.DaemonsDiscuss.com in your browser, (listed on the various podcast syndicates like iTunes, Stitcher, etc.) which will redirect you back to the parent site, Daemons Domain.
* This podcast is intended for personal download/consumption.  Please see our Terms of Use; item 3.

* Our episode titles are a loving tribute to the show "Friends" just 'cause we love Friends and - let's face it - it's easier! Here's how one of the show creators explains their reasoning:
Jeff Greenstein: "When Marta & David & Jeff & I did 'Dream On', we used to spend a lot of time thinking about titles, because they were on-screen at the top of each episode. On "Friends", we decided that was a waste of time. We figured, why not name each episode after the thing that people will ostensibly be talking about around the water-cooler the next day?"
This was a Daemon Production

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