Thursday, February 15, 2018

Daemons Discuss - Podcast: Take 32! | Chapter Discussion about the All Souls Trilogy; Chapter 8 of Shadow of Night - feat. Laura Ventura

Mont St. Michel - image source:

Take 32 - The One With the Prince

Description: Off to Sept-Tours we go! 1590's style! As we travel with Matthew and Diana, we make a few stops. With each step closer to Philippe de Clermont, we not only wonder about him, but we start to really think about who Matthew de Clermont is! Diana Bishop has a long road of discovery ahead of her.

A long(ish) episode, but you won't want to miss a bit of it, because after our chapter discussion, we have a chat about All Souls Con 2018 with Laura Ventura! Philadelphia, here we come! Also, Angela presents evidence of somebody poking some Daemon-styled poppets in their little poppet tongues. An adventure, as always!

SPOILER ALERT! We (The Daemons) approach this podcast with an assumption that the listener has read The All Souls Trilogy, including A Discovery of Witches, Shadow of Night, and The Book of Life. If you haven't, and you don't mind, we certainly don't mind!  😊  Let's do this. *Note - this podcast is labeled 'explicit'

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1. Show notes:

For newcomers to the series:- We'll start with the basics: The books in discussion are A Discovery of Witches, Shadow of Night and The Book of Life.  Together they make The All Souls Trilogy by Deborah Harkness.
- Our Daemon Guides to the All Souls Trilogy are available for download: ADOW, SON, TBOL

Deb's newsletter - The Blast; subscribe on her website
- If you'd like a ready-reference from the author herself, be sure to download the All Souls Real-Time Reading companion (free e-book at online booksellers via Penguin and Headline books).
- Deborah Harkness usually conducts a real-time reading on her Facebook Page (starting in September), and shares her posts across social media. Check out her website for all of her social media links, and of course all that she has to offer her readers! Be sure to sign up for her newsletter while you are there!
- To see what's available on the web as far as the All Souls universe fandom, check our links page.

In this episode:
* (02:03) - Thanks Camille, for you voicemail!

* (03:50) - Thanks goes to our Discussers, Kit & Stephen! Thanks goes to our Daemonic Discussers from the FB group, Melanie & Teresa!

* (07:45) - What do we think Matthew was confessing and atoning for with Cardinal Joyese? We ponder this right here.

Chapter 8
* (10:32) - A boat is SAILED not DRIVEN! Unless it's propelled by motor(s). Then it is STEERED. Thanks Jean! *source: Do You Drive, Steer, or Sail a boat?

* (11:31) - The trembling of the immense ocean.
“‘Immensi tremor oceani,’” Matthew whispered as he contemplated the heaving seas. Staring out across the black water, he had all the expression of a carved figurehead. And his reply to his nephew’s question was odd—the trembling of the immense ocean. I wondered if I had somehow misunderstood his Latin
* (12:09) - Why Gallowglass was upset with Hughs death, and why Hugh died: The fall of the Templars.

Still from the TV show Knightfall
* (12:56) - Angela brings up the show KnightFall, and it's fictional depiction of the fall of the Templars. Apparently there's a lot of beardy goodness and swords in this show!

* (13:56) - This journey sounded incredibly uncomfortable!
True sleep was impossible, but I dozed against Matthew’s chest. It had been a grueling journey thus far, with horses pushed to the limit and boats commandeered. The temperature was frigid, and a thin layer of frost built up on the nap of our English wool.
* (14:57) - We discuss the landscape of Mont. St. Michel.
My knowledge of the island was limited to the stories swapped by friends of mine who sailed every summer around the Isle of Wight: that it was surrounded at low tide by quicksand and at high tide by such dangerous currents that boats were crushed against the rocks. I looked over my shoulder at our tiny boat and shuddered. It was a miracle that we were still alive.
* (15:10) - Diana will save the boat!
“Gallowglass!” We were heading straight for a wall. I scrabbled for an oar to fend off certain disaster. No sooner had my fingers closed around it than Matthew plucked it from my grasp.
             “He’s been putting in at this spot for centuries, and his people for longer than that,” Matthew said calmly, holding the oar lightly in his hands. Improbably, the boat’s bow took another sharp left and the hull was broadside to slabs of rough-hewn granite.
* (15:50) - Climbing the stairs to Mont. St Michel . . .
More soldiers. As we approached, they flattened themselves against the walls to make room for us to pass. Matthew’s fingers tightened a fraction on my elbow, but otherwise the men might have been wraiths for all the attention he paid them.
The Wicked Witch of the West's castle!
* (16:22) - Jean compares it to the Wicked Witch of the West's palace!

* (17:00) - Pierre announces Matthew, and Angela realizes the magnitude of this.
“Il est le chevalier de Clermont!” Pierre called back, cupping his hands around his mouth. His words were met with silence before scurrying footfalls sounded through the cold air.
* (18:14) - The Angels/Demons re: Mont. St. Michel: The Legends of Mont Saint Michel

Cardinal Joyese
* (18:53) - Cardinal Joyese; Born at Carcassonne, François de Joyeuse was the second son of Guillaume de Joyeuse[2] and Marie Eléanor de Batarnay. As the younger son of a seigneur in an intensely religious family of bishops and soldiers,[3] he was destined for a career in the church. [... read more]

* (19:38) - He was supposed to be picking the pope!
“Éminence. I thought you were in Rome, choosing our new pope. Imagine my delight at finding you here.” Matthew didn’t sound happy. I wondered uneasily what we’d stepped into by coming to Mont Saint-Michel and not Saint-Malo as Walter had planned.
* (20:42) - The pope's illegitimate son? Here's what Jean was referring to: Cesare Bogia

* (21:19) - We see the undercurrent in the Cardinal's and Matthew's conversation.
“Ah, Chevalier de Clermont. Or are we calling you something else these days? You have long been out of France. Perhaps you have taken Walsingham’s name along with his position, now that he is gone to hell where he belongs.” The cardinal’s English was impeccable although heavily accented. “We have, on the seigneur’s instructions, been watching for you for three days. There was no mention of a woman.”
* (22:05) - Philippe (according to the cardinal) was continually over-stepping his bounds.
“So I am told. Your father sent this to ensure your safe passage.” Joyeuse tossed a gleaming object to Matthew, who caught it neatly. “Philippe de Clermont forgets himself and behaves as though he were the king of France.”
* (22:52) - What is the cardinal's meaning behind "among the heretics"?
We must leave you, madame. Your husband has been too long among heretics. An extended period spent kneeling on a cold stone floor will remind him who he truly is.”
* (24:26) - Scientist. Vampire. Warrior. Spy. The bells paused before the final knell. Prince ... Jean quotes the earlier passage: The man who strode toward the door was no longer an Oxford don but a Renaissance prince.

* (25:12) - We don't think Matthew enjoyed this life, meanwhile Pierre is happy Matthew is back to himself!
Beside me, Pierre let out a gentle exhalation. “Milord est lui-même,” he murmured with relief. Milord is himself. But was he still mine?
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* (26:44) - The places they stayed on their journey: Fougères, Baugé, Anjou

* (27:11) - The struggles between the Catholics and Protestants, and the war torn areas.
While we were still at the Old Lodge, Matthew and Walter had lectured me on the ongoing struggles between French Protestants and Catholics over who would control the Crown—and the country. From our windows at Fougères, I’d seen distant plumes of smoke marking the Protestant army’s latest encampment, and ruined houses and churches dotted our route. I was shocked by the extent of the devastation.
* (28:08) - Keeping the lies straight, and Philippe's influence as they got closer.
With every strike of our horses’ hooves on the frozen roads, the power and influence of Matthew’s father grew. As we drew closer to Philippe de Clermont, his son became more remote and imperious—a combination that put my teeth on edge and led to several heated arguments. Matthew always apologized for his high-handed conduct once his temper came off the boil, and, knowing the stress he was under as we approached his reunion with his father, I forgave him.
* (28:49) - Diana's new backstory.
Because of the conflict, my carefully constructed background story had to change. In England I was supposed to be a Protestant woman of French descent fleeing her native land to save her life and practice her faith. Here it was essential that I be a long-suffering English Catholic. Somehow Matthew managed to remember all the lies and half-truths required to maintain our multiple assumed identities, not to mention the historical details of every place through which we traveled.
* (29:11) - Entering the province of Anjou.
“We’re in the province of Anjou now.” Matthew’s deep voice brought my attention back. “The people you meet will suspect you’re a Protestant spy because you speak English, no matter what story we tell them. This part of France refuses to acknowledge the king’s claim to the throne and would prefer a Catholic ruler.
* (30:00) - We discuss Philippe's actions. It's almost playing god . . .
“He doesn’t care about the subtleties of Christian belief. In other parts of the country, my father supports the Protestants.”“That’s a remarkably ecumenical view.”“All Philippe cares about is saving France from itself. This past August our new king, Henri of Navarre, tried to force the city of Paris to his religious and political position. Parisians chose to starve rather than bow to a Protestant king.” Matthew raked his fingers through his hair, a sign of distress. “Thousands died, and now my father does not trust the humans to sort out the mess.”
* (31:45) - The checkpoints:
In spite of our adherence to his schedule, Philippe continued to increase the number of family retainers accompanying us, as though he feared we might change our minds and return to England. Some dogged our heels on the roads. Others cleared the way, securing food, horses, and places to stay in bustling inns, isolated houses, and barricaded monasteries. Once we climbed into the rocky hills left by the extinct volcanoes of the Auvergne, we often spotted the silhouettes of riders along the forbidding peaks. After they saw us, they whirled away to carry reports of our progress back to Sept-Tours.
* (31:59) - Sept-Tours then vs. now.
In modern times the fortress was forbidding. Now, with religious and civil war all around, its defensive capabilities were even more obvious. A formidable gatehouse stood vigil between Sept-Tours and the village. Inside, people hurried this way and that, many of them armed.
* (32:30) - Alain . . . we went down the rabbit hole here a bit!
“Alain.” Matthew’s face softened with relief.“Welcome home.” The vampire spoke English. As he approached with a slight hitch in his gait, the details of his appearance came into focus: the salt-and-pepper hair, the lines around his kind eyes, his wiry build.“Thank you, Alain. This is my wife, Diana.”
* (36:40) - The Brazier
In moments we had crossed the room. I settled into a chair with the promised wine and a pierced-metal foot warmer to prop up my legs.
* (36:43) - Philippe is not in a good temper.
Matthew turned sharply in the direction of what I knew as the breakfast room. I listened but heard nothing.Alain shook his head apologetically. “He is not in a good temper.”
* (37:15) - Our first impressions of Philippe based on the description. Jean thought he was master of the universe in the mythic sense. Angela found him chilling -- she picked up on his calculating ways (silent/deadly). Valerie noted his "lazy drawl" is intimidating in itself.

* (40:13) - Philippe knew they weren't from this time. We go into an earlier Discusser comment from last year when we did TOW the Kingmaker. They smelt odd.

* (41:41) - Diana can succinctly relay events to Philippe. We imagine it's because she's an historian. Matthew on the flip-side tends to (say it with us!) OBSFUCATE the truth.
You have a talent for relating complicated information quickly and succinctly, madame. If you would be so kind as to share your methods with Matthew, it would be a service to the family.
* (42:40) - We BRIEFLY touch on the fact that Philippe finds out he dies in the present . . .

* (43:08) - The ring. This chapter is bookended by rings. In the end it wound up being a seal of approval by Ysabeau, and a "just in case" they ran into Philippe.
“Where did you get that?” Philippe was gazing at the ring on the third finger of my left hand. Ysabeau’s ring. Philippe’s eyes turned feral, sought out mine. His fingers tightened on my wrist until the bones started to give way. “She would never have given my ring to another, not while we both lived.”
* (45:40) - The formidable beasts. Philippe is the Lion.
“Stand down, Matthew,” Philippe growled. The sound was as leonine as the rest of him. The de Clermont family was a menagerie of formidable beasts. In Matthew’s presence I was always reminded of wolves. With Ysabeau it was falcons. Gallowglass had made me think of a bear. Philippe was akin to yet another deadly predator.
* (46:16) - Philippe has offered the protection with the knights.
“Now that you have heard her tale, will you give Diana your protection?” Matthew searched his father’s face.“Is that what you want, madame?”I nodded, my fingers curling around the carved arm of the nearby chair.“Then yes, the Knights of Lazarus will ensure her well-being.”
* (46:36) - NOT FULLY MATED?! Wha?!!!
Any manjasang would know you are not fully mated. Gerbert and Domenico certainly knew it as soon as Diana was in their presence. So did Baldwin.
* (48:38) - The physcology of chairs... this is the chair Baldwin chose (TBOL, ch 3):
Come in, Diana.” Baldwin sat in a thronelike Savonarola chair by the tall windows. His burnished red-gold hair gleamed in the lamplight, its color reminding me of the feathers on Augusta, the eagle that Emperor Rudolf hunted with in Prague. Every inch of Baldwin’s muscular frame was taut with anger and banked strength.
* (49:50) - We end this chapter ... OH... NO! We need to review the part from (42:40), we revisit Philippe's future death.

* (53:39) - We end this chapter ... OH... NO. Jean has some more to say. Time to point out that Matthew had all of the information that Diana was fuming about but he didn't share in anticipation of his planning. Angela points out that Walter and Gallowglass were communicating with Philippe on the side.

* (55:25) - We end this chapter. Going once...
As the hours passed, I gave up all hope of sleeping. I went to the window and faced the dawn, trying to figure out how our plans had unraveled so much in such a short period of time and wondering what part Philippe de Clermont—and Matthew’s secrets—had played in their undoing.
* (55:40) Housekeeping: thanks Alan, Catherine, and thanks for the great review from JodFoster!

* (58:00) Save It For the Show … Topic: All Souls Con! Laura joins us to tell us what we are allowed to know about All Souls Con 2018. 2-day convention this year! There will be a live stream (for a small fee). Say hi to Karen and Laura pre-con at the book signing in LA!

* (1:12:44) Promo break – scroll down, or click here to get a hold of us and/or become a Discusser -- information on joining our Facebook group also located on that page.

* (1:14:15) - Last thoughts. we had a bunch so it's probably best that we itemize them in these show notes
  • Jean's last thought is about Gerbert in the last episode . . . She wonders why he's hanging around there? That would be prior to Diana and Matthew meeting. We going on to string ourselves into a knot trying to figure out what his motivation, and thinking about the timeline.
  • Val brings up that we are starting a Patreon page. At the time of publication of this episode it's actually OPEN! We have some early patrons (thank you guys!), so go check it out. She brings up the super secret character played by Chloe Dumas, and we talk about our theory about who she's playing. .. BY THE WAY... we looked it up and both the huntress AND the crone were present in that scene. Diana was filling the role of the mother.
  • Angela is thrilled about the Instastories that Teresa Palmer has been posting with behind the scenes antics. She also points out the stars love Deb just like us. You can check them out on our ADOW TV News page.

* (1:23:25) - RECORD SCRATCH. Damn. Angela really caught a case of the tied-tongue this time (usually it's Jean or Valerie!) Jerry wasn't even there.
  • Join the FB group Daemonic Discussers!
  • The word: 'Fucking Firedrake.' Make sure you answer question 2! 
  • * NOTE: Please keep in mind that this group is only a supplement to our podcast. We recommend that you join only if you truly enjoy the podcast and want to discuss things further. Listening just to gain entry will be a waste of our time, and frankly yours! The screening process has been intensified to keep membership intimate, and to try to keep out folks who don’t have the best intentions for the group and its dynamic. It's an imperfect process, but we are determined to keep it a healthy place for speculation and more detailed discussion for all members, including us. When we opened the group, we decided to require listener-only membership because podcasting is a very personal medium. People who listen tend to know how we are and think. Those who like what we have to say (and don't find us too abrasive/foul-mouthed/opinionated 😈), will most likely enjoy the group to its fullest, and utilize it as a sounding board with other like-minded members who have the ability to peacefully discuss divergent or opposing ideas. We don't have time to worry about mal-intent, because it breeds drama and discourse. If we're not comfortable, then the rest of the members won't be comfortable. None of this is negotiable. It's simply how it is. This is why the Facebook group is not public and we don't advertise it on Deb's website, social media, or other venues.
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* Intro music: "Ghost Dance" (edited down to second chorus) by Kevin Macleod, licensed for use by Creative Commons.
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